Did Lionhead Drop the Ball on Fable 2 Co-Op?

Nicholas "bapenguin" Puleo October 21st, 2008 at 11:11 AM

The official Fable 2 forums are ablaze with angry co-op gamers, as it appears most of us have been misled as to exactly what the cooperative mode entails. The main gripe people are having is that your Fable 2 character does not transfer over to any form of co-op. This applies to both the online and the offline mode. What you do get is to become a henchmen, something we already knew, but we didn't know how literal the term was.

When Lionhead used the term "henchman" in our interview, they actually meant a henchman character - not a henchmen role. This mean that character you've worked so hard to customize, including weapons, armor, scars, and other markings all are NOT visible in your friend's game when joining. On top of this, any items you gain while in a friend's game will not transfer back to your character. The only thing that transfers is gold, experience and renown.

Unfortunately that's not the end of the issue list. Players are complaining about a wonky camera system, tethering players together in both local and co-op play. There's also a glitch when joining someone's game while they are in childhood that could affect and corrupt your own save. So be careful they are past the introduction stage.

At this point we can only hope for a proper co-op patch to allow your character in other player's games, or your friends character in your game. This seems to happen far to often when a developer gets this close to getting co-op play done right; to only have it missing a key piece of the equation.

Note to developers - Stripping features out of the co-op experience that you have in single player is never a good thing.

Source: Link

Tags: xbox 360 fable

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51 Total Reader Comments

wikkidkarma at 06:16 AM on 10.21.2008

So would you say, at this point, that there is no point picking up a second copy of Fable II to play co-op with the girlfriend? The co-op modes are essentially the same on shared screen and XBL, right? Aside from having to share a screen, obviously.. ?

bapenguin at 06:26 AM on 10.21.2008

Yup, that seems to be the case unfortunately.

wikkidkarma at 06:32 AM on 10.21.2008

Huh.. I guess if there's a silver lining here, it's that I've already gone a bit over budget with my games spending. 2 copies of Saints Row 2, fable II CE, and Fallout 3 pre-ordered through amazon. Not to mention Left 4 Dead in a month.

I had a quick glance at the Lionhead forums, (they're not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Co-Optimus forums) and everyone keeps going on about how Lionhead needs to patch this.

I know nil about game programming, but is it as easy as all that, to just whip up a patch that will "fix" the co-op? If my girl and I could have our own respective heroes, stats, equip et all included, I would more than likely pony up the dough for a second copy (or more likely, make her pay for her own. ). How likely is that to happen?

rafoca at 06:56 AM on 10.21.2008

I may have a curse upon myself. Really! Everytime I am amazed about a co-op game, it turns out to be unfinished and disappointing

Peter Molyneux said he would change the way we play co-op, and that is his answer to that? Limiting the second player to a random henchmen that can´t take the new items to his own game (only stats, gold and exp)??

It makes no sense. Not at ll.

Fivespot at 07:20 AM on 10.21.2008

This is extremely disappointing news to me. I can't believe they'd offer coop while dropping the ball on what would make the coop gameplay worthwhile to play (allowing items to be available in both modes for example).

The coop aspect of Fable 2 is why I was interested in this game in the first place. Bummer.

pheriannath at 07:27 AM on 10.21.2008

Well, I guess making the second player the main player's bitch is a "new" way of playing co-op...

DjinniMan at 07:29 AM on 10.21.2008

This will not affect me playing with my kids, say, but who wants to be a henchman, in this capacity, playing online with a friend? One player gets the full single player experience, and the other is just a tag along. Not cool, and yes, I think we were mislead.

rafoca at 08:38 AM on 10.21.2008

Yeah. It seems good old Peter cheated somehow on us again. I like that fella... he seems to be so passionate on what he does! But he alweays says too much and can´t deliver everything he promisses.

txshurricane at 08:39 AM on 10.21.2008

It just takes away every reason to play co-op. It would have been better to have a mode where NEITHER player kept what they gathered, and although that's not an exciting prospect by any means, how many people are playing co-op Fable II right now? Considering this new info, probably very few.

txshurricane at 08:40 AM on 10.21.2008

It seems that the Seth Luisi Syndrome is contagious...

rafoca at 09:11 AM on 10.21.2008

There is a dev on the official forums that are making fun of people that are complaining about co-op. He is literally mocking of people there.

I can´t believe a dev is doing that. I am going to cancel my login there.

bapenguin at 09:18 AM on 10.21.2008

Got a link to that rafoca?

txshurricane at 09:49 AM on 10.21.2008

I found it:

OrigamiPanther at 10:13 AM on 10.21.2008

reading just a part of that forum hurt my soul

and IQ

Fivespot at 11:13 AM on 10.21.2008

Apparently that gentleman doesn't know who pays his salary (gamers). Not a good idea in my opinion to act like that over legitimate concerns related to the coop mode.

justabaldguy at 11:47 AM on 10.21.2008

Man, a henchman?? How lame is that? Maybe they can patch this... I don't know how that works, but man if they don't fix it, I don't think Pete can ever sell a game again...

wikkidkarma at 12:04 PM on 10.21.2008

I hate to buck the crowd here, but I think people are blowing this waaaaay out of proportion. Yes, it sucks that when we play co-op, we can't use our custom characters, with loot and all, but It's not the end of the world. I picked up my copy today and I'm psyched to play co-op with the girlfriend tonight. Our plan is to have our own respective save games going, and we'll alternate in jumping as a henchman in our respective games. Is this preferable to playing through the campaign with our respective characters? Of course not. What it does do however is allow us to build our own worlds up, families, houses, businesses, etc, and let us show them off to one another. One person I may brutally murder in my game, she may marry in hers, and it'll be neat to see that side by side comparisons.

Part of Fable II's appeal is how your character can build his reputation in the world of Albion for good or evil, and to have to track two distinct, dynamic characters in that world would probably be to taxing for the game. What if I'm off being a noble hero, while my online partner is slaying every townsfolk he runs into? Granted they could have used a similar function as the henchmen in the game, while still allowing you to use your own in-game character, but I think they would be facing the same complaints as now. This way it's cut and dry that the henchman is exactly what it is.

This is a huge step in the right direction, as far as RPG's go. Are there better options out there for the console? None that I know of. Keep in mind that before Saints Row 2, our options for sandbox games co-op were GTAIV, which was a huge letdown for me. I should have been able to at least do social activities with my online partner, like I could with Little Jacob or Roman, and Crackdown, which had NIL for story.

Co-Optimus was founded to give us a voice in the co-op community, and to illustrate how important co-op games are to the gaming community. I'm a HUGE fan of co-op games, and when new releases come out, co-op is a major factor in my decision to buy immediately, or wait to get a sale. Fable II isn't perfect, but it's a leap in the right direction, and instead of everyone jumping all over the flaws, we should be complimenting the huge endeavour Lionhead took on to try to please us.

txshurricane at 12:08 PM on 10.21.2008

I respectfully disagree...I feel that it isn't a "leap" in the right direction. I see your point that one person affecting another's "world" can be a detriment, but overall, I don't feel that Lionhead had to fashion the game this way. For a game that imports data from XBLA mini-games, there is no technical reason for the game being shortchanged.

In any case, this thread has gotten skewed slightly...the original post by Bapenguin was not so much to shed light on the game's gimped co-op, but more so on Lionhead's underhanded way of hyping it.

I for one am glad that you're enjoying the game.

wikkidkarma at 12:16 PM on 10.21.2008

I may have misrepresented my point. I don't think they limited to co-op to limit other people affecting game worlds, I think that the technological difficulties are what prohibited them from giving two characters free reign in one game world. I no nothing about programming, but I would imagine it would be difficult to create an environment on a console where two seperate identities can dynamically affect the world (buying shops, getting married, etc).

As for a leap in the right direction, again, I'd have to insist that the other options for on/offline co-op RPG titles is severely limited.Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel and D&D heroes come to mind, but neither are of the scope and potential of this title. With the exception of FPS's, I can't think of very many games that DO have full on, campaign Co-op. Fable II is allowing you to bring a person along with you as a sort of 'Co-Pilot" which isn't as good as being a full-fledged character, but you can draw some comparsions to Gears and RB6. In Gears only the person playing Marcus has the opportunity to choose paths, pause the game, etc. In RB6, only the primary character can issue orders to the squad, etc.

Of course Fable II has a long way to come to be a great co-op game, but I still think it's a good start.

As for Lionhead misrepresenting the co-op, did they? I haven't read every article available on Fable II, but I've been pretty up to date with Co-Optimus and a couple other gaming sites. I think it's been at worst ambigious on how the co-op will work, and at best, they've been pretty upfront about calling the co-op character "henchmen". I of course, could stand to be corrected as far as what they've promised, but personally, I didn't expect full-on co-op out of the box.

wikkidkarma at 12:22 PM on 10.21.2008

http://www.co-optimus.com/preview/87/Fa ... ds_On.html

"On a related note, I was told that if the player joining the game had a profile with a saved game in Fable, the henchman would take on the characteristics of that player's Fable 2 character. After leaving the world all the gold and renown would transfer back to that persons saved game. "

I hate to keep re-iterating, but I think that they were pretty up front with Bap, and in turn, he was up front with us.

But again, I don't know what was promised elsewhere.

And just as a general disclaimer, so no-one calls me out on it later, I haven't actually played it yet. I got my pre-order at lunch and am at work for another hour, so I may end up eating my words come tonight.

bapenguin at 12:26 PM on 10.21.2008

I've been trying to find it. But I could have sworn that I read somewhere earlier that local games it was a henchman generated character while online games it was your actual character.

I guess really they weren't 100% clear with it. Which is why there is so much confusion for people. And that's the problem.

wikkidkarma at 12:40 PM on 10.21.2008

I fall back to my original statement that people are blowing this out of proportion. Did people make this much of a deal over GTAIV's limited co-op, or is this a case of sensitivity based on Peter's bad reputation for overhype?

justabaldguy at 01:25 PM on 10.21.2008

I'll chime in again since I've got Fable II on the brain, and its still 15 minutes till I call everyone to dinner.

I only played for about an hour, and have been watching the kids, cooking, cleaning etc watching the clock for the kids' bedtime so I can jump back into Albion! I've had some time to think about the co-op situation. Transferring renown and gold is great. I'm assuming it'll transfer overall experience too, right? And we've read that you can gift items to each other in co-op, right? With all those features, I'll agree with those here (like wikkidkarma) saying it'll be a great game, much better than previous co-op games like it.

Sure, I'd love to have my fine-tuned character shown off to my friends, and vice versa, and I'd certainly want to carry my hard-earned weapon into battle in my friend's world. It sounds though like a henchman character might not be too bad. You'll get all the game rewards, you just won't be able to show off your cool accessories. I think I'll be fine with that. It's not idea, and I'm not certain we weren't all mislead here and there. I think it'll work though. I'm hoping to test the co-op tonight and find out for sure.

bapenguin at 02:22 PM on 10.21.2008

I still think the co-op is gimped and stand by this article.

They dropped the ball. The co-op had real potential, and they fell short of the line. It's fun, but well short of the game's potential. Especially for a AAA title.

wikkidkarma at 04:45 PM on 10.21.2008

So I got home and eagerly threw the disc in the 360. I played through the tutorial, and as I was diving into the first dungeon my girlfriend grabbed a controller and jumped in with me.

....

I'm not ready to take back my earlier statements just yet, but I can understand where the complaints are coming from. A better selection of henchmen would have been nice, or some degree of customization beyond basic equipment. On top of that, The camera is really stupid. Maybe given some time to adjust, it might become smoother, but as it stands, it's a huge pain in the ass.

For those of you that don't know, the only way to change the camera angle in co-op (shared screen at least) is to hit the right bumper. This centers the camera behind your hero. In the tight confines of the dungeon, it was a huge pain in the ass.

These of course, are first impressions. I plan on delving in a bit more and see what shakes out. As it stands, I still think Lionhead is working towards the right direction with this, and I hope they can take the positive criticisms from people complaints.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel running around Albion looking like Master Chief, but that's another issue entirely.

rafoca at 07:05 AM on 10.22.2008

I disagree too. This is not even a little step forward, but some steps backwards. After playing co-op games like Crackdown, Halo, Gears, Saints Row 2, Diablo, Sacred... I can´t imagine how they move forward with Fable 2 co-op.

I couldn´t believe when someone spread the news that in online co-op the camera is fixed on the host. That is pretty lame! Really!

I liked the orbs thing (it´s very innovative and cool), but I´d rather a full co-op without this orbs than having the orbs without the full co-op experience. That is very oposite to Co-op Bill of Rights.

Devs seems to be not caring at all, for everytime I see onf of them saying something like: you are disliking the game, but a lot of people is enjoying.

I can´t imagine hiow some people are really enjoying co-op... the camera is really annoying. And it is frustrating not being able to take back items to the sinle-player game.

Also, Peter said he would change the way we play co-op, he said co-op was a major feature... with all this talking , who doesnt get hyped?

hedgehogaj at 07:54 AM on 10.22.2008

I don't see how this is at all a step forward. Player 2 is essentially a bodyguard. They can't change clothing. They can't use items. They can't purchase anything. They can't upgrade any of their equipment. And if Player 1 is interacting with anything, they can't even move. Would it have been that difficult to make the blacksmithing/woodcutting jobs 2 player?

I can understand not being able to have two characters from different games merge worlds. However, a co-op game mode, wherein parts of the plot gets skipped or altered (like in Too Human) and has co-op specific characters is an easy way to solve that problem. It wouldn't be ideal, but it beats one player being little more than an extra weapon.

I also don't see any benefit to the locked camera in online co-op. The camera itself caused me to alter my play style, in part due to the "Aim" ability not functioning in the same manner, to the point that my normally varied and fun to watch combat, turned into rather boring hack and slash.

While chatting online and following a friend's orb to the gargoyle I couldn't find is a "change to the way we play co-op", the fact that two friends who believe every game would be better with co-op are having more fun in single player says something.

OrigamiPanther at 08:00 AM on 10.22.2008

Not having a 360 or Fable II, can't weigh in about the actual gameplay. The one thing I will say is this: a mechanic where the 2nd player tags along with the main character for the complete RPG story has been around since at least 1993 when Secret of Mana was released. As the 2nd player you couldn't customize your character in terms of appearance, but you could equip them, develop their magic, etc. as you saw fit. Potentially even screwing over your friend (if you really wanted to). The fact that this mechanic hasn't been used more often or developed further is pretty disheartening for a regular RPG player like myself.

COG_Network at 08:23 AM on 10.22.2008

kacey3 says...
It just occurred to me...

Why is there a button to "teleport" to the hero character in co-op play, if your henchman is actually tethered to them and is never more than 25 feet away? Is this some kind of latent implication that the current co-op patch is just something to tide us over in lieu of Lionhead's intended co-op play?

wikkidkarma at 08:25 AM on 10.22.2008

Peter did say this, and thus far it looks like it might have been a bit over promised, but I've made the argument before, either in this thread or another, GTAIV's co-op was a letdown for me, and I haven't heard anyone really complain to this degree over it. I think half the outcry over this is BECAUSE it's P.M.

And besides.. Has the broken camera and henchman not changed the way we play co-op games?

txshurricane at 08:32 AM on 10.22.2008

I believe that a big part of this is because the GTA crowd are more focused on the versus play, which GTA IV delivered better than Fable 2 delivered co-op.

wikkidkarma at 08:34 AM on 10.22.2008

I already made my obligatory joke about broken cameras "changing the way we play co-op", but you do make a good point. Single player was more fun than Co-Op.

wikkidkarma at 08:36 AM on 10.22.2008

Has been around, but very, very underutilized. There are a few games over the years, D&D Heroes, Baldur's Gate, Fallout: BOS, but it's been few and far between. Also, with the argument of Secret of Mana, if I'm not mistaken, you couldn't customize much as the 1st player either. It's been a loooong time since I played, but I thought the 2nd player was equal in option to the first player.

And I echo your sentiments as far as being disheartened that thes mechanics aren't developed. This is why I keep saying that I think Fable II is a step in the right direction. (Leap might have been a bit strong of phrase)

wikkidkarma at 08:40 AM on 10.22.2008

Ok, but then why even include Co-Op play? I didn't buy GTAIV for the co-op, and I didn't get a 2nd copy for Co-Op either, but what if I had? I would have been hugely dissapointed. When I see [Co-op: 1-2 players"> on the back of a case, I get super excited, and a lot of times I'm let down. I tend to do my research on games before i buy, but a lot people don't, so it's not unlikely that peopl bought GTA expecting a good co-op aspect. GTAIV's co-op was only moderately better than the original Saints Row co-op. It was awesome that they allow two (or more) people free roam the entire city, but why shut down all the shops, strip clubs, bowling alleys, etc? I can free roam, but with very little to enjoy in the city. Comparitavely to Saints Row 2, I think I'll get tons more fun out of SR2 than I did out GTAIV, despite GTAIV being superior in actual graphics and gameplay mechanics.

I think people are holding Fable II up to unfair standards becaus it's Lionhead and Richard Moly. That's all I'm getting at.

wikkidkarma at 08:48 AM on 10.22.2008

Just for the record, I'm not an employee of Lionhead, nor am I "fanboy" of Lionhead or Fable. I just get frustrated when the mass of people jump on games for the flaws, rather than offering constructive criticism on how the game could be improved.

Did Lionhead drop the ball on Fable 2 Co-Op?

Absolutely they did. The camera is shit, and the henchman situation is far from ideal. Complaining about these issues is fine, I support it 100%, but I just think the manner in which MOST people (on Lionheads forums, not here) are doing it is really counter productive. It does generate a level of hostility between developers and gamers, and it hurts everyone. Someone commented about how the developers were handling the situation poorly, but how would you react if you worked your ass off for months (years?) to provide a game for everyone to enjoy, and all you got back was complaints and insults? I think people forget that the guys developing these games WANT us to like them. They try their best to make them good, and if they fail, it's not done intentionally.

I can't see Richard M. sitting in his office planning on serving up a broken co-op experience. Developing a great co-op experience, even if it's only though live DRIVES sales, not cuts them. If Saint's Row 2's co-op was as poorly implemented as the first, I would buy one copy, likely well after release when it had dropped in price, and play it when I could. As it stands, It's one of the best co-op experiences I've ever had, so I bought 2 copies in week of release. It's just good business to design a good product, and I'm sure that they did their best to deliver, and are doing their best to fix it.

Maybe Fable II will never get the Co-Op problems fixed, but it's a step forward from Fable I, and going forward with Fable III (if there will be one) They'll know what do address first and foremost.

As it stands now, either play the singleplayer, live with the co-op, or avoid the game altogether. If you're unhappy with what they've done, don't buy the game. That's the strongest way to send a message to the game companies.

txshurricane at 08:53 AM on 10.22.2008

Well, there's really no way to NOT be let down, if you're buying games based on other people's impressions and developer promises. As I said before: take SOCOM, for example.

If you're a tentative buyer, as I am, then you're going to wait and try the game via rental, in-store kiosks, a friend's house, etc. The way that game companies battle this is by talking up their game and hyping.

No one hyped GTA IV's co-op, only the multiplayer; as a result, try and find a game online and let me know how that turns out. Hint: people felt let down because the game didn't live up.
In this case, Lionhead hyped the co-op mode...and guess what? Same difference. It doesn't matter what they did or didn't promise, and it doesn't matter what the industry standard is. Lionhead purposely marketed their game as having groundbreaking co-op in order to get you to spend $60 or more, and it worked.

It's like politics, in a way. Which is sad.

wikkidkarma at 09:01 AM on 10.22.2008

In regards to GTAIV, I didn't really care for it, but vs. play really isn't my thing, so I don't fault the game, but I do see your point.

As for ground-breaking co-op, in another post, Bapenguin commented on how slick the orb system was. I haven't been online with FII yet, so I can't say one way or the other, but it sounds like it is pretty innovative.

That aside, I still think the option to have a second player come with you through the entire story is something that has been missing in any other action RPG game yet. I haven't played Two Worlds, Or Too Human, but from what I've garnered, it seems that in both, co-op is severly limited. Fable II took another approach. They've given you a passenger seat for the co-op, but limited your customization abilities.

On top of that, you're given the opportunity to roam through Albion, which by all accounts (again I don't know the facts) is massive in comparsion to the other two games.

At this point I think we're just going to go around in circles over the issue. I did concede that Co-Op could have been a lot better, and maybe it's my cynicism over game hype in general, but I didn't expect the world of Fable II in co-op. I think, for me at least, I got enough to satisfy what I was expecting.

rafoca at 09:08 AM on 10.22.2008

The camera really changed the way we play.

But, as a friend mentioned above, Secret of Mana is a SNES RPG and let us enjoy all the main adventure with 3 players local and it is awesome! Marvel Ultimate is also a RPG, as well as Champions of Norrath and Baldur´s Gate. Sacred 2 is coming for consoles next year and it will allow everything we wanted in a co-op game (unless they cut it at launch).Two Worlds sux completely and Too Human is almost perfect in co-op terms, but fails because it doesn´t have any story on co-op mode, but it has the option to trade items, to take back your new items to another game and all this stuff that should be in Fable 2.

What I am sure is that, so far, on consoles, we don´t have a sandbox-rpg with decent co-op. Problem is: should Fable 2 be considered sandbox? It is not really open-world.

I am not arguing with you here. I consider this place like a family. We have the same goals

I am just too disappointed. You know... I will pay more than twice the price you pay and I won´t have the co-op I almost dreamt of
I am not forced to pay, I know, but I will because I liked the first Fable.

It seems Sacred 2 is the only promiss now on consoles.

wikkidkarma at 09:17 AM on 10.22.2008

Do you live overseas? Why the price difference? I do sympathize. I keep waiting for the perfect Co-Op (SAINTS ROW 2!!), but I will take what I can get, as long as it keeps improving. I think, despite the co-op issues, if you liked Fable, you'll really like Fable II.

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