Did Lionhead Drop the Ball on Fable 2 Co-Op?
The official Fable 2 forums are ablaze with angry co-op gamers, as it appears most of us have been misled as to exactly what the cooperative mode entails. The main gripe people are having is that your Fable 2 character does not transfer over to any form of co-op. This applies to both the online and the offline mode. What you do get is to become a henchmen, something we already knew, but we didn't know how literal the term was.
When Lionhead used the term "henchman" in our interview, they actually meant a henchman character - not a henchmen role. This mean that character you've worked so hard to customize, including weapons, armor, scars, and other markings all are NOT visible in your friend's game when joining. On top of this, any items you gain while in a friend's game will not transfer back to your character. The only thing that transfers is gold, experience and renown.
Unfortunately that's not the end of the issue list. Players are complaining about a wonky camera system, tethering players together in both local and co-op play. There's also a glitch when joining someone's game while they are in childhood that could affect and corrupt your own save. So be careful they are past the introduction stage.
At this point we can only hope for a proper co-op patch to allow your character in other player's games, or your friends character in your game. This seems to happen far to often when a developer gets this close to getting co-op play done right; to only have it missing a key piece of the equation.
Note to developers - Stripping features out of the co-op experience that you have in single player is never a good thing.
Source: Link
wikkidkarma at 11:16 AM on 10.21.2008
So would you say, at this point, that there is no point picking up a second copy of Fable II to play co-op with the girlfriend? The co-op modes are essentially the same on shared screen and XBL, right? Aside from having to share a screen, obviously.. ? 
bapenguin at 11:26 AM on 10.21.2008
Yup, that seems to be the case unfortunately. wikkidkarma at 11:32 AM on 10.21.2008
Huh.. I guess if there's a silver lining here, it's that I've already gone a bit over budget with my games spending. 2 copies of Saints Row 2, fable II CE, and Fallout 3 pre-ordered through amazon. Not to mention Left 4 Dead in a month. I had a quick glance at the Lionhead forums, (they're not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Co-Optimus forums) and everyone keeps going on about how Lionhead needs to patch this.
I know nil about game programming, but is it as easy as all that, to just whip up a patch that will "fix" the co-op? If my girl and I could have our own respective heroes, stats, equip et all included, I would more than likely pony up the dough for a second copy (or more likely, make her pay for her own. ). How likely is that to happen?
rafoca at 11:56 AM on 10.21.2008
I may have a curse upon myself. Really! Everytime I am amazed about a co-op game, it turns out to be unfinished and disappointing Peter Molyneux said he would change the way we play co-op, and that is his answer to that? Limiting the second player to a random henchmen that canīt take the new items to his own game (only stats, gold and exp)??
It makes no sense. Not at ll.
Fivespot at 12:20 PM on 10.21.2008
This is extremely disappointing news to me. I can't believe they'd offer coop while dropping the ball on what would make the coop gameplay worthwhile to play (allowing items to be available in both modes for example).The coop aspect of Fable 2 is why I was interested in this game in the first place. Bummer.
pheriannath at 12:27 PM on 10.21.2008
Well, I guess making the second player the main player's bitch is a "new" way of playing co-op... 
DjinniMan at 12:29 PM on 10.21.2008
This will not affect me playing with my kids, say, but who wants to be a henchman, in this capacity, playing online with a friend? One player gets the full single player experience, and the other is just a tag along. Not cool, and yes, I think we were mislead. rafoca at 01:38 PM on 10.21.2008
Yeah. It seems good old Peter cheated somehow on us again. I like that fella... he seems to be so passionate on what he does! But he alweays says too much and canīt deliver everything he promisses. 
txshurricane at 01:39 PM on 10.21.2008
It just takes away every reason to play co-op. It would have been better to have a mode where NEITHER player kept what they gathered, and although that's not an exciting prospect by any means, how many people are playing co-op Fable II right now? Considering this new info, probably very few. rafoca at 02:11 PM on 10.21.2008
There is a dev on the official forums that are making fun of people that are complaining about co-op. He is literally mocking of people there.I canīt believe a dev is doing that. I am going to cancel my login there.
bapenguin at 02:18 PM on 10.21.2008
Got a link to that rafoca? txshurricane at 02:49 PM on 10.21.2008
I found it:
OrigamiPanther at 03:13 PM on 10.21.2008
reading just a part of that forum hurt my souland IQ
Fivespot at 04:13 PM on 10.21.2008
Apparently that gentleman doesn't know who pays his salary (gamers). Not a good idea in my opinion to act like that over legitimate concerns related to the coop mode. 
justabaldguy at 04:47 PM on 10.21.2008
Man, a henchman?? How lame is that? Maybe they can patch this... I don't know how that works, but man if they don't fix it, I don't think Pete can ever sell a game again... wikkidkarma at 05:04 PM on 10.21.2008
I hate to buck the crowd here, but I think people are blowing this waaaaay out of proportion. Yes, it sucks that when we play co-op, we can't use our custom characters, with loot and all, but It's not the end of the world. I picked up my copy today and I'm psyched to play co-op with the girlfriend tonight. Our plan is to have our own respective save games going, and we'll alternate in jumping as a henchman in our respective games. Is this preferable to playing through the campaign with our respective characters? Of course not. What it does do however is allow us to build our own worlds up, families, houses, businesses, etc, and let us show them off to one another. One person I may brutally murder in my game, she may marry in hers, and it'll be neat to see that side by side comparisons. Part of Fable II's appeal is how your character can build his reputation in the world of Albion for good or evil, and to have to track two distinct, dynamic characters in that world would probably be to taxing for the game. What if I'm off being a noble hero, while my online partner is slaying every townsfolk he runs into? Granted they could have used a similar function as the henchmen in the game, while still allowing you to use your own in-game character, but I think they would be facing the same complaints as now. This way it's cut and dry that the henchman is exactly what it is.
This is a huge step in the right direction, as far as RPG's go. Are there better options out there for the console? None that I know of. Keep in mind that before Saints Row 2, our options for sandbox games co-op were GTAIV, which was a huge letdown for me. I should have been able to at least do social activities with my online partner, like I could with Little Jacob or Roman, and Crackdown, which had NIL for story.
Co-Optimus was founded to give us a voice in the co-op community, and to illustrate how important co-op games are to the gaming community. I'm a HUGE fan of co-op games, and when new releases come out, co-op is a major factor in my decision to buy immediately, or wait to get a sale. Fable II isn't perfect, but it's a leap in the right direction, and instead of everyone jumping all over the flaws, we should be complimenting the huge endeavour Lionhead took on to try to please us.
txshurricane at 05:08 PM on 10.21.2008
I respectfully disagree...I feel that it isn't a "leap" in the right direction. I see your point that one person affecting another's "world" can be a detriment, but overall, I don't feel that Lionhead had to fashion the game this way. For a game that imports data from XBLA mini-games, there is no technical reason for the game being shortchanged.
In any case, this thread has gotten skewed slightly...the original post by Bapenguin was not so much to shed light on the game's gimped co-op, but more so on Lionhead's underhanded way of hyping it.
I for one am glad that you're enjoying the game.
wikkidkarma at 05:16 PM on 10.21.2008
I may have misrepresented my point. I don't think they limited to co-op to limit other people affecting game worlds, I think that the technological difficulties are what prohibited them from giving two characters free reign in one game world. I no nothing about programming, but I would imagine it would be difficult to create an environment on a console where two seperate identities can dynamically affect the world (buying shops, getting married, etc).
As for a leap in the right direction, again, I'd have to insist that the other options for on/offline co-op RPG titles is severely limited.Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel and D&D heroes come to mind, but neither are of the scope and potential of this title. With the exception of FPS's, I can't think of very many games that DO have full on, campaign Co-op. Fable II is allowing you to bring a person along with you as a sort of 'Co-Pilot" which isn't as good as being a full-fledged character, but you can draw some comparsions to Gears and RB6. In Gears only the person playing Marcus has the opportunity to choose paths, pause the game, etc. In RB6, only the primary character can issue orders to the squad, etc.
Of course Fable II has a long way to come to be a great co-op game, but I still think it's a good start.
As for Lionhead misrepresenting the co-op, did they? I haven't read every article available on Fable II, but I've been pretty up to date with Co-Optimus and a couple other gaming sites. I think it's been at worst ambigious on how the co-op will work, and at best, they've been pretty upfront about calling the co-op character "henchmen". I of course, could stand to be corrected as far as what they've promised, but personally, I didn't expect full-on co-op out of the box.
wikkidkarma at 05:22 PM on 10.21.2008
http://www.co-optimus.com/preview/87/Fa ... ds_On.html"On a related note, I was told that if the player joining the game had a profile with a saved game in Fable, the henchman would take on the characteristics of that player's Fable 2 character. After leaving the world all the gold and renown would transfer back to that persons saved game. "
I hate to keep re-iterating, but I think that they were pretty up front with Bap, and in turn, he was up front with us.
But again, I don't know what was promised elsewhere.
And just as a general disclaimer, so no-one calls me out on it later, I haven't actually played it yet. I got my pre-order at lunch and am at work for another hour, so I may end up eating my words come tonight.
bapenguin at 05:26 PM on 10.21.2008
I've been trying to find it. But I could have sworn that I read somewhere earlier that local games it was a henchman generated character while online games it was your actual character.I guess really they weren't 100% clear with it. Which is why there is so much confusion for people. And that's the problem.
wikkidkarma at 05:40 PM on 10.21.2008
I fall back to my original statement that people are blowing this out of proportion. Did people make this much of a deal over GTAIV's limited co-op, or is this a case of sensitivity based on Peter's bad reputation for overhype? justabaldguy at 06:25 PM on 10.21.2008
I'll chime in again since I've got Fable II on the brain, and its still 15 minutes till I call everyone to dinner. I only played for about an hour, and have been watching the kids, cooking, cleaning etc watching the clock for the kids' bedtime so I can jump back into Albion! I've had some time to think about the co-op situation. Transferring renown and gold is great. I'm assuming it'll transfer overall experience too, right? And we've read that you can gift items to each other in co-op, right? With all those features, I'll agree with those here (like wikkidkarma) saying it'll be a great game, much better than previous co-op games like it.
Sure, I'd love to have my fine-tuned character shown off to my friends, and vice versa, and I'd certainly want to carry my hard-earned weapon into battle in my friend's world. It sounds though like a henchman character might not be too bad. You'll get all the game rewards, you just won't be able to show off your cool accessories. I think I'll be fine with that. It's not idea, and I'm not certain we weren't all mislead here and there. I think it'll work though. I'm hoping to test the co-op tonight and find out for sure.
bapenguin at 07:22 PM on 10.21.2008
I still think the co-op is gimped and stand by this article. They dropped the ball. The co-op had real potential, and they fell short of the line. It's fun, but well short of the game's potential. Especially for a AAA title.
wikkidkarma at 09:45 PM on 10.21.2008
So I got home and eagerly threw the disc in the 360. I played through the tutorial, and as I was diving into the first dungeon my girlfriend grabbed a controller and jumped in with me.....
I'm not ready to take back my earlier statements just yet, but I can understand where the complaints are coming from. A better selection of henchmen would have been nice, or some degree of customization beyond basic equipment. On top of that, The camera is really stupid. Maybe given some time to adjust, it might become smoother, but as it stands, it's a huge pain in the ass.
For those of you that don't know, the only way to change the camera angle in co-op (shared screen at least) is to hit the right bumper. This centers the camera behind your hero. In the tight confines of the dungeon, it was a huge pain in the ass.
These of course, are first impressions. I plan on delving in a bit more and see what shakes out. As it stands, I still think Lionhead is working towards the right direction with this, and I hope they can take the positive criticisms from people complaints.
Also, I'm not sure how I feel running around Albion looking like Master Chief, but that's another issue entirely.
rafoca at 12:05 PM on 10.22.2008
I disagree too. This is not even a little step forward, but some steps backwards. After playing co-op games like Crackdown, Halo, Gears, Saints Row 2, Diablo, Sacred... I canīt imagine how they move forward with Fable 2 co-op.
I couldnīt believe when someone spread the news that in online co-op the camera is fixed on the host. That is pretty lame! Really!
I liked the orbs thing (itīs very innovative and cool), but Iīd rather a full co-op without this orbs than having the orbs without the full co-op experience. That is very oposite to Co-op Bill of Rights.
Devs seems to be not caring at all, for everytime I see onf of them saying something like: you are disliking the game, but a lot of people is enjoying.
I canīt imagine hiow some people are really enjoying co-op... the camera is really annoying. And it is frustrating not being able to take back items to the sinle-player game.
Also, Peter said he would change the way we play co-op, he said co-op was a major feature... with all this talking , who doesnt get hyped?
hedgehogaj at 12:54 PM on 10.22.2008
I don't see how this is at all a step forward. Player 2 is essentially a bodyguard. They can't change clothing. They can't use items. They can't purchase anything. They can't upgrade any of their equipment. And if Player 1 is interacting with anything, they can't even move. Would it have been that difficult to make the blacksmithing/woodcutting jobs 2 player? I can understand not being able to have two characters from different games merge worlds. However, a co-op game mode, wherein parts of the plot gets skipped or altered (like in Too Human) and has co-op specific characters is an easy way to solve that problem. It wouldn't be ideal, but it beats one player being little more than an extra weapon.
I also don't see any benefit to the locked camera in online co-op. The camera itself caused me to alter my play style, in part due to the "Aim" ability not functioning in the same manner, to the point that my normally varied and fun to watch combat, turned into rather boring hack and slash.
While chatting online and following a friend's orb to the gargoyle I couldn't find is a "change to the way we play co-op", the fact that two friends who believe every game would be better with co-op are having more fun in single player says something.
OrigamiPanther at 01:00 PM on 10.22.2008
Not having a 360 or Fable II, can't weigh in about the actual gameplay. The one thing I will say is this: a mechanic where the 2nd player tags along with the main character for the complete RPG story has been around since at least 1993 when Secret of Mana was released. As the 2nd player you couldn't customize your character in terms of appearance, but you could equip them, develop their magic, etc. as you saw fit. Potentially even screwing over your friend (if you really wanted to). The fact that this mechanic hasn't been used more often or developed further is pretty disheartening for a regular RPG player like myself. COG_Network at 01:23 PM on 10.22.2008
kacey3 says...It just occurred to me...
Why is there a button to "teleport" to the hero character in co-op play, if your henchman is actually tethered to them and is never more than 25 feet away? Is this some kind of latent implication that the current co-op patch is just something to tide us over in lieu of Lionhead's intended co-op play?
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